Curse

AnonTerror · Feb 03, 2009, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Sun and Moon is 2309742893479287x better than final thrust for a singular reason. Unblockable. Sun and Moon is probably the only reason why I'd ever run a sword now.

There are countless times when I'm running a Prage axe and the targets down to 10% from a spike and as I follow through with Body Blow it gets blocked and the target gets a miraculous infuse/woh/rof and gets saved. In that particular situation I'd wish dearly I had Sun and Moon; likewise when I'm pressuring and body blow gets blocked... utter waste of 7 adrenaline.

Swords don't crit as much, the attack skills don't as much damage, you lose a slot for ultility, yadda yadda. Sun and Moon is the great equalizer. Against bad monks, it really doesn't matter what you're running. Against decent ones (ones that guardian right after the target gets hit), sun and moon can get through the block after you've exhausted the previous combo. Against good ones (ones that preprot as soon as you get in the vicinity of a target) every single blocked skill makes the window of opportunity smaller and smaller if you have nothing to threaten them with.

With this said, the standard Prage Axe bar (Bulls, Executioners/Body Blow, Disember, Shock, Primal Rage, Rush/Defensive Stance Rez, two utility like Dchop/Dstrike/Shock/Conjure/Rending Touch) is still better for most situations. My point is that Sun and Moon gives the Sword bar a chance to see play (Cripslash works in niche builds where theres either A. Condi overload or/and B. Condi Removal Shutdown).

Xanthar · Feb 03, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Just on the self-heal thing - I'm usually in favor of bringing more damage/utility instead of a self-heal. In the end, your role as a warrior is to make things die in a hurry. If you succeed in this, a self-heal won't be necessary, if you fail at it, a self-heal won't save you.

That said, there are corner cases where the self heal decides a match in your favor (heavy degen, monk supression etc.) but a well timed KD/interrupt/damge etc.l will decide the outcome so much more often that the self-heal pales in comparison.

Also: Primal Rage is teh shiznass. As soon as you get comfortable with using cancel stances, unlock and equip Prage. You'll never be able to go back. Or, at least not until it gets nerfed

ogion · Feb 04, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I see that there are fans of all three elite skills - Primal Rage, Hundred Blades and Crippling Slash. I have already played with the last two, will experiment with PRage soon. On experimental basis, I have selected all stats to be additional armor when in stance(PvP Equipment). Is +health better for a warrior?

I also got rid of healing skill. Those who have been suggesting Elementalist skills like conjure, should I dump monk as secondary profession and pick Ele instead? I don't have that profession on my pve character, so need to buy everything through faction points...

Xanthar · Feb 04, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogion

Is +health better for a warrior?

Yes - The larger your pool of health is, the bigger the margin of error you can tolerate from your monk - In GvG, a large health pool will allow you to extend further, in RA you'll just die more slowly

A large percentage of the damage you'll take as a warrior is armor ignoring (Empathy, degen, life-steal etc.) and for this, additional armor is a waste of space. Aim for a health of ~600. Anything under that is unacceptable to a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogion

I don't have that profession on my pve character, so need to buy everything through faction points...

Not to worry, a Conjure costs only 1k faction, so a few more games should set you right up. Just don't forget that you need and elemental weapon of the same kind as your conjure to make it work. The "J" button is your friend

ogion · Feb 04, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

How do I 'wield' a lightning weapon when I need normal sword for my warrior 'swordsmanship' skills? Sorry if that's a silly question but I am really confused

Thanks for the suggestion on health based runes and insignias. I now have 610 health

Teutonic Paladin · Feb 04, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogion

How do I 'wield' a lightning weapon when I need normal sword for my warrior 'swordsmanship' skills? Sorry if that's a silly question but I am really confused

Thanks for the suggestion on health based runes and insignias. I now have 610 health

Go to the Balthazar Faction priest and click the equipment tab, go to the Warrior Upgrades section and purchase a "Shocking" Hilt. Now open the create equipment screen and it will be an option. The shocking has no benefit other than converting your damage to a certain kind of elemental damage. This allows you to ignore any +Physical Armor buffs and activate skills that rely on elemental damage (like Conjure Lightning).

ogion · Feb 04, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Oh, I just need to customize the hilt of my current weapon! Cool, done

I will try Conjure Lightning tomorrow

Byron · Feb 04, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonTerror

Sun and Moon is 2309742893479287x better than final thrust for a singular reason. Unblockable. Sun and Moon is probably the only reason why I'd ever run a sword now.

I'll have to disagree. Sword chains are, by nature, fragile. Sever-gash is weak. The chain is susceptible to block, as you have said with your sun-and-moon deal. Having one skill that's unblockable will not make much difference. Therefore, to kill anything with a sword, you need to be a part of a pressure system, or exploit opportunities.

Final thrust is the sweetest opportunity exploiter in guild wars. You know that it will hit for big damage, unlike other skills that need crits. Ohhhhh, it's sweet.

It suffers mostly because of the strength of other templates. If you're bringing a build with a set frontline and the intention to adrenal spike, you'd be stupid to bring a sword warrior (that's right, Europe). This because hammer templates are very powerful, and axe warriors are necessary for good spikes.

Greedy Gus · Feb 04, 2009, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

RA veterans
Final thrust is beautiful
between dodgeball rounds
rage-spam
14 strength like a real pro
The objective, as should be obvious, is to final thrust people to death.

+++++respect

Seraphim of Chaos · Feb 05, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Also

Warrior's Endurance

AnonTerror · Feb 06, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'll have to disagree. Sword chains are, by nature, fragile. Sever-gash is weak. The chain is susceptible to block, as you have said with your sun-and-moon deal. Having one skill that's unblockable will not make much difference. Therefore, to kill anything with a sword, you need to be a part of a pressure system, or exploit opportunities.

Final thrust is the sweetest opportunity exploiter in guild wars. You know that it will hit for big damage, unlike other skills that need crits. Ohhhhh, it's sweet.

It suffers mostly because of the strength of other templates. If you're bringing a build with a set frontline and the intention to adrenal spike, you'd be stupid to bring a sword warrior (that's right, Europe). This because hammer templates are very powerful, and axe warriors are necessary for good spikes.

With Final Thrust, you also know there is a chance it will be blocked and thereby wasting 10 adrenaline/resetting the pool. Even if it hits, it resets the pool anyway; very annoying. That does no bode well for being part of a "pressure system".

I agree that sword chains are weak, I agreed that axe templates are much stronger at this point, I also agree that Euro's make bad buildwars decisions (who remmebers when Euro's were running a Dragonslash War in a dual paragon build?). My point is that Sun and Moon is a very very good skill and gives the sword bar some semblance of viability.

-Pluto- · Feb 06, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Wow, can't believe someone else is supporting final thrust. To me, it always seems like people forgot why people always ran their utility elites (ie, those old empathic wars, or charge wars) on a sword bar rather than an axe bar. Final thrust is pretty much the only way you can come even close to competing with an eviscerate. Otherwise, you're probably better off using dismember, body blow instead of anything with sever, gash, s&m. Like Byron, I really don't think the unblockable clause is really all that relevant. If you can't hit with any of your other attacks, a pair of sword auto attacks isn't going to cause a kill. Savaging a guardian (which is something you'll do anyway, even if S&M is unblockable) and then final thrust someone for 120 damage is more likely to force a kill than just hitting for probably a pair of 30's.

If you're running a conjure, S&M is definitely worth it though. And also, it's safer, since your rush doesn't get drained.

But I can also count the number of people who like final thrust any more on one hand, so there's probably some reason for that I'm not fully understanding.

Greedy Gus · Feb 06, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

It's just easier to play sun&moon in that slot, because you can mash it any time you want and it will be good. Final thrust is just a really strong tool on your bar but it requires more specific circumstances to utilize that power (and will actually make you worse if you're using it poorly or those circumstances aren't created). Final thrust sword wars tend to work better in builds that generate pressure from the midline (old ranger pressure builds are a key example), and rely on the warriors to get kills by exploiting opportunities instead of generating the pressure themselves. [Then again, conjure warriors have been just as often thrown into midline pressure builds just to go for over the top pressure, and as you mention sun&moon is better there]. Final thrust is also a nice tool for split wars trying to ninja an NPC quickly or deliver fatal damage to a flagger in a short time-frame (KD duration). Clearly these are two build roles that are increasingly irrelevant in modern metas, and using an energy-based stance for utility over rush has also become a bigger handicap.

One more thing I'll mention about final thrust is that it took a dip in usefulness after the UI update to display deep wounds. Final triggering gash's deep wound used to be one of the deadliest packets of damage, but is more telegraphed now. Although it may not have kept up with the power creep so well, the classic 6-hit sword kill from sever/hit/hit/hit/gash/final (or some combination) used to be a big deal which Duck demonstrated to me back in prophecies to change my mind on swords.

Anyway it's a shame for such a good and interesting skill to have developed the current reputation. Definitely agree with Pluto that final thrust is a reason to run sword with some bars; sun & moon is simply a slot-filler when you want a strong elite like cripslash on a frenzy/rush bar.

subarucar · Feb 06, 2009, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Conjure + Hundred Blades + Sun and Moon is teh Sh*t. Although we are tryng to keep this thread on topic, i do agree that Final Thrust is nice damage, if it hits, if it doesnt, you lose your adren anyway. Also to make most sword bars any good, they usually need a conjure, making S&M preferable imo.

Ex Death · Feb 06, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Final Thrust has been shit for the past 2 years apart from in the Rage of the Ntouka split/byob bars. Power creep is a nasty thing indeed.